011: It’s all about the LOOOOOVE, baby.
Shows January 30th, 2007
Turn on that Barry White, and pull out the rotating heart-shaped bed. After a long hiatus, we sit down to discuss love spells, lust spells and potions, and we explore the ethics of love magic.
Who loves ya, baby?
January 30th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Great to have a new episode!
And I also just wanted to say that I put Shadowdance in to be included on Digg.com. It was still waiting to be accepted last I checked, but it should be available soon for people to digg.
January 30th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I really like your show I think vampires are cool and michelle belanger
rs books are great i tell every one to read them come to the witches world wide message board meetup.com
January 30th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
this is an amazing show, i tell you, i liked this episode especially considering it’s more than interesting tidbits and it brought out my closet romantic for the first time in gods know how long
CATHRAC
January 30th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
i found the concept of the universe having a balance (you will the rain away from your picnic but it’ll rain close by) is in accordance somewhat to the laws of conservation of mass and energy; mass/energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but can change state (ice to water/water vapor). This is further illustrated by Einstein’s famous equation: E = Mc^2 which states that all matter can be converted into energy and vice versa (M = E/c^2). Well I’ll stop being the physics geek I am for now, hope some form of forums happen soon.
- Ephraim
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:11 pm
I suspect that keeping a running log of my own thoughts during these shows might be a useful thing.
February 7th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
First, I want to say that you two helped me manage the drive between Wichita Falls and Dallas, TX this last weekend. Thanks for keeping my brain out of drive-rot.
Also, this episode put forth a lot of ideas. Deo’s Shadow upholds the premise that “…harm none…” is “woefully inadequate,” and I agree. Compare that to the Thelemic “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,” and we have ourselves quite a ideological quandry.
Love spells, and sex magick, and the like, have been regarded so poorly in our “day and age” with current Wiccan trends (I can’t say the same for other paths), and when Wiccans try to live by a idea that doesn’t work, it throws a lot of wrenches into their little witchy gears.
I have to say that love spells, like anything else, are not the bad things that they are played up to be. We manipulate people all the time, i.e., advertising, extrinsic motivation in education, moral dogmization. How could something so simple as trying to get in the sack with someone be so horrible in comparison?
Ultimately, like most things, this seems to come down to morality, and how gray each of ours is.
February 8th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Well let me see if I can muddle through some of this when is a love spell appropriate, or any spell really, and perhaps others can see if I seem to be on the right track with this line of thinking.
I would say the difference of how good or right a spell is could be summed up with the question of does it facilitate or does it force? If the love spell is an attempt to force a change in another person’s feelings, or beliefs, or actions, then that would be a bad thing. If that love spell is just to help create the possibility of love, to open the doors so to speak, to get you noticed and allow this other person to see you in the best light and as a potential mate then that is a good thing. Love and relationships and meeting people can be very hard, so any tool that helps is a good thing, magic or otherwise. I think this is true about any magic used. Such as using a spell to make a person give you a job is different then making yourself look good or creating the possibility of getting the job, keeping the mind of the interviewer open and seeing your good qualities. You should be doing that anyway with a good resume, being on time, looking your best, talking about how you are good for the company and so forth.
So there was mention of use of spells in the bedroom of people that are already a couple (or triad or whatever). I don’t see the problem there because the spells are being used to deepen passion, intimacy, and the relationship. That is a facilitation of the relationship which is great. Again relationships can be hard work, and working on them is a good thing with any tools you have. The use of a spell is the same as taking any other path to create a better relationship with your partner.
I guess I would argue that a spell to force another to love or sleep with you is not a love spell at all. And I am not talking about the semantics of a “love” spell verses say a “lust” spell. What I see going on is you really don’t care about this other person truly, you just want them, bodily or otherwise, and you want them to be what you want. So you eliminate and destroy this other person’s true self and their outlook and their soul and you replace it with something of your choosing that meets your desires. That doesn’t seem like love to me. And I think this is a danger in more areas then just magic. It is the same with religion, philosophy, politics, and other places of life involving ideas or definitions of self. That is a person can be taught to think or about an idea, or the student’s true self and outlook can be replaced with someone else’s.
To quote the song Sgt. Baker from Primus:
“I will rape your personality
Pummel you with my own philosophy
Strip you of your self-integrity
To make you all just a bit like me”
I agree with Derek that we are all manipulating others pretty much all the time. But there is a difference in bending someone to our will and simply creating new opportunities and possibilities. Such as if I talk to a person and give them a new way to look at a subject, and suddenly they are open to whole new trains of thoughts and so perhaps even change who they are then I have manipulated them, but that is not always a bad thing. It has happened to me, and to my wife. We would not be together if someone had not talked to her and so changed her entire religious outlook, or if she had not introduced me to ideas which gave me more personal insight and confidence in who I am. We have both grown and changed, but I think we are both more true to ourselves now then we were.
So back to spells, I would ask is the spell trying to increase possibility, open the way to change, and increase freedom and growth, or is it trying to eliminate possibility, force a single outcome, to cage or chain a person, or to stifle growth? Sometimes these can be subtle, and sometimes forgotten if it seems the end justifies the means. But making the distinction and being thoughtful on it is part of what makes a truly willful person.
So anyone else have feelings on any of this? Am I on or off the mark with this?
And just a couple side notes:
Oh and it is interesting. I believe that Chris mentioned deo’s Shadow, and I was listening to deo’s Shadow #29 and he mentioned Shadowdance as a podcast he listens to.
And after a LONG delay Shadowdance was approved on Digg.com, so anyone that wants, go over there and “digg” the show. Another place to perhaps get some more listeners.
February 10th, 2007 at 2:14 am
I just started listening to your show this week, as I just got a device that will let me just sync it over (Zen M 30GB). And I have to say that ur show has already opened my eyes more, as a new wiccan, and also more reasoning to some of the here and there rumors I always here. I really look forward to more of the episodes you come up with, and I will now forever be a faithful listeners. ^_^
And on the question u threw out there, about is love spells allowed in a current relationship, and that is such a hard thing to figure out. But I think that if both parties perhaps are involved in said spell, I think it should be okay, but it’s hard to guestimate all the changes to the natural change it might make. But like I said, I am new to all this stuff, been “wiccan” for only about 5 years, and really havent had the chance to learn becuase lack of Wiccans here in Ontario…well… my area at least.
February 12th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Curtis C, where in Ontario are you located? I ask because there are a number of informal Pagan meet ups in Toronto, Hamilton, Kitchner-Waterloo, Ottawa, and a number of other places. If you’re interested in meeting more people I may be able to put you in touch with some community leaders in your area. For further details e-mail me at psyche [at] spiralnature [dot] com.
February 19th, 2007 at 11:15 am
Canada has the coolest pagan community. I’m envious.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Hello. Not specifically on topic to this particular episode, but I discovered this podcast by chance last week (I think, after looking up “vampires” in iTunes) and have been downloading voraciously ever since. I am generally someone who would describe herself as a somewhat curmudgeonly atheist/rationalist, however, you folks are just so danged smart and well-read and obviously, well, rational yourselves that I have no shame in identifying with a curious amount of what is said in this podcast.
Keep up the good work and don’t fade out!